Before We Sleep opens with a cry for help in the dark. It’s come from River (Tom Walker), a dying young boy asleep in the arms of his older brother Jake (Josh Lacy) who we meet as he startles awake from what is sure to have been very unrestful sleep. They’re alone in the makeshift tent they share somewhere in the woods of a post-apocalyptic world. Bombs and sirens go off in the far distance, unseen among the seemingly endless expanse of barren, looming trees. Things are bad, and River and Jake are not safe. They are unwell. They are lonely. But, despite and because of everything, they are together.
The AACTA (Australian Academy of Cinema and Television Arts) Award-nominated short film is the brain- and heart-child of Australian actor and filmmaker Josh Lacy (Amazon Prime/ABC TV’S Troppo), and it’s clear after just a few minutes of chatting with him that Lacy is serious about his art. And though he doesn’t quite say it outright, I get the sense that the stakes for this project were quite high - professionally, yes, but also personally. Emotionally. Creatively. Soully. It’s a flavour of determination and desperation that feels familiar and one that any creative person with a vision of any size would recognise well. This isn’t to say that Lacy comes across as desperate by any means - quite the opposite, really; he is steady and sure in his artistry and his dedication to it. A dedication that is most immediately and visually apparent in his willingness to lose 15kg (~30lbs) to play the film’s co-lead, Jake, who is starving and struggling to put food on the table for himself and ill younger brother River.
It also quickly becomes evident that though he takes his art seriously, he takes his responsibility as an artist even more so. It’s a responsibility to the craft and audience, yes, but also to his fellow artists. Artists like young Autistic actor Tom Walker who plays Lacy’s brother and who, prior to working with Lacy, had rarely had the opportunity to thrive - or frankly, exist - on a film set. The thought of someone’s creativity and artistry being stunted is unacceptable and offensive to the Before We Sleep actor-writer-director, especially when it’s someone with such obvious talent and passion as Walker and because of something as human as disability. He tells me as much, but I already suspected. His set was certified as inclusive by Inclusively Made, and that doesn’t just happen by accident.
While this artistic responsibility and dedication of Lacy's eventually resulted in a film with sharp intentionality and a cohesive creative vision, that vision wasn’t always so clear. In Lacy’s case, it was a long time in the making: it’s been ten years since he first wrote a treatment for the concept, then called “Tent”. The treatment became a proof-of-concept short and then feature-length script by the same name (co-written by Mason Jay Lewis) that was slated to become a longer version of itself. But as art often does, Tent begged to evolve, and soon it wasn’t Tent at all. And though Tent and Before We Sleep have their similarities, largely in cast (Bridgette Armstrong, Tom Walker, Izellah Connelly, Lacy himself) and setting (desolate, war-torn woods) - what they give to and ask of their audiences are wholly and entirely different.
Armstrong (known for her role as Young Simone in Paramount ANZ/Netflix’s One Night) is particularly well positioned to recognise these differences. Her character Maisy, who in Before We Sleep is one of three figures River meets on his way to the other side, underwent one of the biggest creative evolutions of the project. As an actor, she was intimately involved in the transformation of her character. It's this plus her role as Lacy’s wife that have awarded her a nuanced perspective and singular understanding of the film's transformations as a whole.
Ultimately, all of the growing pains were worth it. Despite and because of everything, Before We Sleep is here, and it earned a Best Short Film AACTA Nomination for Lacy, Armstrong and the team. And I can see why. After watching it last month, it lingers with me still. It is as haunting and claustrophobic as it is grounding and expanding. The performances were affecting and the direction was powerful. And its call to the metaphysical, though eerie, is comforting. Especially for someone who has spent the past year reckoning with the loss of her father. I watched it three times in a row.
I was lucky to first meet Armstrong when I interviewed her for Read The Room's feature on One Night in 2023, and I was thrilled to get to chat with her again - and this time with Lacy. It’s always a treat to talk to artists about their work, especially when that work is as personal as Before We Sleep is to the two of them. And though I went into our conversation looking to talk about all things accessibility and inclusivity, I quickly fell in love with the story that they poured their hearts into. I hope you do, too.
Helena Emmanuel: What is it like to finally have Before We Sleep out in the world? And not only that, but to have it get nominated for an AACTA Award?
Josh Lacy: It's a strange experience. In a way there's kind of this duality to it where you don't want it to ever be over. On the surface it kind of looks like or feels like it's over once it goes out, but there's a lot of things that happen after the release that keep you hanging on. But I get attached to things and I don't want to let them go, so it's been bittersweet.
It's only technically been out in the world for a couple of months, but the success that it's having I think is helping me with that process of letting go a little bit because it means people are watching and it means that the work that we did is having some kind of an impact and it has a certain level of reach to it, which is exactly why we do it, you know? I think the selfishness of me wanting to hold on to it and perfect it and keep my hands in it….I like comparing it to having a child - not that I have any - but you conceptualise it, you carry it, you give birth to it, then you raise it up and create it, and then it turns 18. And that can be kind of hard.
But I'm very, very happy with the reception that it's getting, firstly. And of course being nominated for an AACTA, which especially in this country is a very prestigious honour, is symbolic to me of achieving exactly what I wanted to achieve, which is people seeing it and liking it and being affected and moved by it, which is very good. Very great.
HE: I can imagine that it’s even harder to let it go when it’s something you’ve had in your head and your heart for so long.
Josh: Yeah no, it is. Especially when you give your entire life force to it while it's being done. My philosophy, if I can call it that, is to me it’s life or death. When I'm creating something for people to view and take time out of their day to watch, there's just nothing that could be more important to me while I'm in that process.
I don't really understand when people say that making your art is for you, that it should be selfish. I don't understand that, and I didn't understand that. I want to make things for people. I want to make things that entertain or impact or move or enlighten or educate people. It's very important to me while I'm doing it, so the shaking it off can be a little tricky after that because you kind of don't know what to do with yourself.
Bridgette Armstrong: Yeah, you didn't know what to do.
HE: The filming of it was very physical - literally, in your case - because you had to change your body for it. So I can imagine that coming off of that made letting it go even harder.
Josh: That was a weird thing, but it just added to the sense of seriousness that I give my work. And I think the one thing that I took into being a first time director that I'm really glad that I took in was, okay, well, if I set the bar at the highest possible stakes creatively, then hopefully everybody else will buy in. And that was exactly what happened for the most part. I think people could see how hard I was working and the weight that I'd lost. It was like 15 kilos or something in like a month, 31 days.
Bridgette: It was crazy.
Josh: Because it was right after Christmas, and I had from January the 2nd to February the 4th to lose the weight. And you know, a month in pre-production is not very long, but I would have meetings in early January and then meet [the team] again, three, four weeks later, and they'd be like, ‘Holy shit’. But then I think that added an element of craft and seriousness to the project that it really needed for people to buy into something that on the page reads a little quirky and can be difficult to understand.
So the physical change, it was really hard. But it's just kind of how I roll.
Bridgette: Meanwhile I’m always the person like, ‘Is everyone okay? Do you need water? Do you need anything?’ And I'd go to Josh and be like, [hesitating] ‘Um, okay…’. I remember there was one day where we were in the studio doing the interior scenes in the tent, I believe. And it was really hot and it was really crammed and there was a lot going on, and I looked at Josh and I went, uh oh, he doesn't look good. I think he might pass out in a second. And I'm like, ‘You good?’ And he's like, ‘Yeah’, but he stumbled a bit. And I was like, ‘Okay, lollies, lollies right now!’ Like, ‘Someone give him some sugar, please!
HE: What was that like, to watch him do that to himself?
Bridgette: It's part of it, right? As artists, you have to go there, you have to do these difficult things. And so I wanted to respect his process, obviously, because if I had to do it I would as well. But it was really hard as a wife because my love language is feeding him and making sure [he’s okay]. I was torn between playing wife but also just respecting that he was doing his job. It was kind of hard, but we somehow got through it. And the end product was worth it. So it's alright.
HE: How long ago did you finish post-production on it?
Josh: We finished post in July. By the time we had finished post, it was six months after we finished shooting, so by that point I was kind of okay. It was just this new problem of, oh shit. What are we going to do with it now?
With me being a first-time director, I don't think anybody expected it to be particularly good, you know? I got that feeling throughout the pre-production process. And I kind of felt like I knew in my mind that it would be something special, but I didn't have any evidence to support that claim. You know, no one knew what I was capable of from a directorial standpoint.
And it turned out, I think, really great. There's things I would change, of course, but it turned out great.
HE: Tent and Before We Sleep are from the same treatment and come from more or less the same foundation, but the style and tone of the them are quite different. Could you talk about that creative evolution?
Josh: We originally wrote Tent as a feature film, and it was going to be a little more commercial or mainstream. We were going to shoot it in a more traditional aspect ratio, and obviously in color, and play with themes that are a little more recognizable to a casual movie-going audience. We sold that script and then about six months later, we bought it back off the company that we sold it to because we wanted to develop it ourselves. And I'm not very patient. I thought, you know what? The process of getting this funded into a feature is going to be long no matter what. What I might do is I might try and crowdfund a short version just to have some more material to show investors when we get to that point. And I don't think I ever thought we would get the full amount, but we did end up getting the funding 10 days before the end of the campaign from a private investor who came in and wanted to fund it. The plan at that time was just to use it as a bit of material for the feature. It was never going to be a festival thing.
But as I started developing the feature into a short, I realized that it just wasn't possible to translate it in any way that's going to be beneficial to pitching it. So slowly but surely I just sort of opened myself up. I got the all clear from the investors to change things however I felt necessary, and as the months went on, this thing became totally different, totally quirky. I mean, the characters remain the same for the most part, Jake and River are still brothers and they still are living in a tent out in a war-torn world, a metaphysical version of Earth, but literally everything else changed. I had gone through a complete creative reawakening.
I feel very grateful that I was given the opportunity to do that. And I guess everything happens for a reason. If we hadn't had trouble funding the feature, we wouldn't have gone through the process of making the short and it becoming Before We Sleep and being in a position now where it's nominated for an AACTA and it's having success.
Bridgette: The final product was definitely not what I was expecting or what any of us were expecting, but it was totally and completely unique. Which is what Josh wanted. He wanted it to be abstract and make the audience ask questions which is absolutely what it does. It will be a different experience for everyone. I’m so glad he really stuck to his gut despite what anyone thought. He made this film out of pure creative impulse and somehow we all pulled it off!
HE: What did the film look like the first time you saw it/were introduced to it? Was it an early draft stage?
Bridgette: I was there for the majority of the conversations around changing the original concept of Tent into Before We Sleep. I remember lots of different ideas being thrown around for the new plot. It was really amazing seeing Josh flesh out the new concept and how drastically things were changing from the original idea. I probably read about five of the drafts that Josh and Mason (Jay Lewis) wrote for Before We Sleep, but there were so many more than that.
HE: How do the characters you played in both versions of the project differ? Is there any overlap?
Bridgette: Although they kept the name Maisy for both, there isn’t much similarity between the two characters. In Tent, she was a random girl that Jake and River stumble across in an abandoned house who ends up sticking with them. She was very feisty and stand-offish in the original script but she did have a softness to her and a sort of maternal instinct which she shows in a scene she has with Abigail when she gets her period for the first time. She sort of acts as a big sister. So I suppose the overlap is that there’s a need to give guidance as well as having a maternal presence. But the Maisy we see in Before We Sleep is very different to Tent.
HE: Did anything about your process or approach to the project change across its iterations?
Bridgette: My process as an actor stayed the same, but my approach was very different because I was playing a totally different character to the Maisy in Tent. I worked very closely with Josh to ensure that I was on the right page and changed accordingly. We went through so many variations of makeup and costume for Maisy and did some rehearsals in different locations to really workshop how we wanted her to be. The final costume and location made everything fall into place.
It was also really important for me to build a deeper connection with Tommy [Walker] because he was the only one I had scenes with. We got along so well and almost have an older sister-younger brother relationship in real life so it was very easy. I loved shooting our scenes together.
HE: Without spoiling anything, what can you tell us about the Maisy we see in Before We Sleep?
Bridgette: Maisy is one of three separate parts of River’s imagination. She is a fundamental part of who he is and one of the few happy memories that River has. So she is, in essence, real because she is real to River in that moment and the impact that she has in guiding him in his final part of his journey is very real.
HE: What is your working dynamic like? Has it evolved as the two of you work more together?
Josh: Our working relationship is very similar to our personal relationship in that I'm a total nightmare and Bridge is an angel.
Bridgette: I'm very patient and I can read the room and I always make sure I'm just not stepping on toes. If it's crunch time, I'm not the wife anymore; I just step back and I watch from the sideline or wherever I need to be. But it's a good question because when I was being directed by Josh and acting as Maisy, we weren’t really sure how that was going to go because we'd never done that before.
But I think we just go into work mode, right? I was honestly just really listening to the feedback and just trying to do my job as best as I could. I don't think I even thought about him being my husband at that moment. It was just, what can I do? Great. If this is working, great. If it's not, give me honest feedback. There's no hard feelings. It's not a personal thing.
Josh: I think because you'd seen everybody else kill it and it was kind of your turn to step up to the plate and you're like, well, I'm not going to be the one who ruins it on the last day with a shitty performance.
Bridgette: I would never ruin it.
(She says this half tongue-in-cheek, half earnestly. We know she’s right though.)
Josh: I had never seen the serious side of her craft like that. She was dead-eyed and focused and as determined as I was to get it right. It was like trial by fire. It was thrive or die. You were like, here I am, this is what I do. And it worked just as fluently as any other director-actor relationship, I think.
Bridgette: Yeah. If not a little more. Because, you know, you also really want to do well for your partner. I can't let him down on a professional level, but also on a personal level because I know how much this means to him and it's been so many years of hard work. So the stakes were high, but that was good. I love that. I love that adrenaline state. And as an artist that is something you need, I think. You always need that fire and that nervous energy to get through.
Watching Josh work as a director for the first time - that was very special. I think everyone could see how passionate he was about this. He put everything he had into it and I think that the cast and crew could see that. It made everyone else work harder. I’m so proud of him. This is definitely just the start of his directing career.
Josh: Yeah, it felt like what we were doing was important. I don't like to be super serious all the time because you've got to have lightheartedness in your life and I tend to be a bit too serious, but it just felt like while we were there, we were doing something important and every single person - cast, producers, crew, above and below the line - everybody was treating it like it was something that could be really special if we all give it a hundred percent.
I think that is a good marker or indicator that you are doing something that might be special: everyone seems to be on the same page and everyone seems to buy in.
HE: You can really feel that it has a very clear voice and point of view. It feels like it’s someone’s vision. And I think that's the best art. The most best films to watch are ones with something to say.
Josh: It's the kind of films I like to watch. I was talking to a friend and colleague in the business the other day about how it's funny how there are so many points and threads throughout the film that I wasn't aware of, that were subconscious, that I thought were just random creative decisions that when I watch the film, it reflects me back to me without me knowing. It is teaching me things that I need to know and fix about myself and things that I feel guilty about, things I wish I'd done better, things I want to do, things I find sad to the point of not being able to get over it. All these little things that I wasn't thinking about myself when I wrote them.
So if there is one element of selfishness about it - which if there is it's only a very small sliver, then it’s that at the end of it, if you do it with a true heart and a noble intention and a big dream and you swing hard, then it's always going to give you something back that you didn't intend. If it comes from you truthfully and who you are, it'll reflect something back to you that you needed to know. And that's not just filmmaking, but all kinds of art. It'll reflect something about yourself back to you if you have the eyes to see it.
HE: Absolutely. Stories and art are so important.
Bridgette, what was your favourite part of filming Before We Sleep? Did you take anything away from it?
Bridgette: My favourite part of this process was building such beautiful strong friendships with the cast and crew. Most of them I had known before this, but this job really built deeper connections with everyone. There were so many challenges. Night shoots in the woods. Locations falling through days before. Impossible set dec and costume requests. Not having electricity on locations. There were 101 hurdles but everyone stuck together and got the job done. Every department went above and beyond to bring this crazy film to life. I felt a lot of gratitude seeing everyone’s effort and hard work to bring Josh’s vision to life.
HE: A lot of the team at Read The Room including myself identify as disabled and/or neurodivergent, and one thing that stood out to us about the film was the discussion that it generated about accessibility and inclusivity on set and in filmmaking. Your production became certified as an inclusive set by Inclusively Made, which is amazing, and reading about your experience working with Autistic child actor Tom Walker and getting the inclusivity certification was incredibly refreshing and affirming. Could you talk about that certification process and working with Tom?
Josh: It was another lesson for me. Not having ever been involved in casting processes or producing or directing or being in charge of making decisions, I was not aware that there was a bias against neurodivergent artists and artists with Autism or disabilities in general.
I didn't cast Tom Walker thinking that it would be great to have a neurodivergent actor. He was just the best actor. And I loved everything about him. He was quirky. He was unique in the most incredible way. He was an individual and a deep, strong, powerful thinker for an eight year old and he just had exactly what he needed to. He had the imagination to play a character whose imagination is easing him through the process of dying. And he understood that premise and that concept more than any other eight year old I could have cast in the role.
He was also the first actor I saw a tape for. And through the process of making it, I never gave it much of a thought other than working with his mum, Michelle, to make sure that the set was an appropriate and safe and fun and playful place for him to be because we knew he was going to have to work long hours. I wanted to make sure that this was going to be an enjoyable process for him. It wasn't until after where it was brought to my attention that he had been removed from film sets before because of his disability.
I had heard horror stories about him being essentially fired on the first day because he would move too much or he would distract the camera from the main actors. And whether that's right or wrong I don’t know, but I know that he wasn't destined to be a background artist anyway. He was destined to be the star, because there's just no one like him.
Bridgette: Absolutely. He was the life of the set, wasn't he?
Josh: It was a really hard collection of stories to hear because he's so good. He's so important creatively, not just to me, but to the film. And his creative process and his imagination really matter. And I thought what a shame it would have been if during the casting process I had a bias towards him because he was neurodivergent and I thought he'd be difficult, which is really common from people I've spoken to. I hear a lot of like, it just adds a level of difficulty to an already difficult thing, making a film.
I didn't find it difficult at all. I didn't find it strenuous and I didn't find it added any extra workload to my job - and trust me, I was exhausted. It was seamless, it was easy, it was exactly what you would expect from casting an eight year old in a film. There was no layer of difficulty added. So even if the film is terrible and people don't like it, hopefully we can make a difference and give Tom and Tom's family a platform to tell that story and inspire hope in artists similar to Tom. Show them that things are changing, slowly but surely, and that they can do it because he did. And also show these people that tell me that it's difficult and that they don't want to do it, that, hey, listen, I had every reason - if I had even known otherwise - to not want to [hire Tom] thinking that it might add too much: I've already got to lose the weight; I'm writing, directing and acting; it's a five day shoot. Maybe I just don't want the hassle. But I feel very grateful that I didn't have that sort of dogmatic mindset. Hopefully it shows people what you get when you open your mind up a little bit to who you consider for roles and crew and artistry of any kind, really.
HE: This is something especially personal to me because I used to work in film in TV production and I know from first and second-hand experience what it's like to be excluded from the industry because of its lack of accessibility. I've heard frustrating and harrowing stories from so many different people across so many different experiences - and have some of my own - so hearing a story of people taking the time and the effort and the care to make someone feel included and create an environment where they can thrive and be the artists that they are is quite important.
Josh: I'm very glad to hear you say that. You saying that right now makes the whole thing pretty much worth it.
HE: I'm glad. I’m glad to be able to tell you. It’s really special and really powerful, so thank you.
Is there anything you want to add about making filmmaking more inclusive and what that could mean for the future of the art and the industry in and of itself?
Josh: Right now my focus is on the experiences I've had. I'm sort of weary of commenting on too many different topics having not experienced them. All I know is that I had a really special experience with a young actor named Tom Walker who happens to have Autism and is absolutely sensational and would be a gift for anyone to hire. And I assume that that is not just a Tom Walker thing, but a worldwide thing for any artist with a disability. Everyone has a story. Everybody has something to contribute. Everybody has a little artist inside of them no matter what profession you work in.
And I know that I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you receiving compliments about my film if it wasn't for Tom Walker. So I might leave that at that because I feel very passionately about that, and it's something that I'm going to continue to lend my name and my face to for the rest of my professional career. Because firstly, I want everybody to have the opportunity to be creative, because I know what being creative gives me and I would love for everyone to have that feeling if they want it. But secondly, I know what kind of art we would get more of if we had more diversity in our artists. And I think Before We Sleep is a perfect example of that.
HE: That's a wonderful answer.
Lastly, what do you ultimately hope people take away from the film? How do you hope they walk away from it?
Josh: That's a hard one.
Bridgette: It's a big one. My god, what will they take away from it? I think everyone's experience will be different, and that's kind of the goal with it. We didn't want it to sort of be just one thing. It's very complex and it makes you ask questions. A lot of people won't understand it, and that's a good thing. We don't really want everyone to understand it. So I don't know if I can really answer what everyone will take away from it. I'd be interested to see what people take away from it. But for me, it's just the beautiful, tragic story of two brothers going to the other side, coming out the other side of a really tragic, difficult world into something really beautiful.
I hope that answers the question. That’s a really hard question to answer.
[To Josh] You want to answer that?
Josh: It has two layers for me. I hope that people are impacted from an entertainment standpoint, from the surface level story - the war-torn world, the engaging imagery, the questions that are invoked by it, its thought-provoking nature. But then I also hope that people leave it remembering what is important, if I can say something as crude as that. It’s about the journey that we all have to take at one point yet none of us know what it's going to be like. And if the film can put people at ease about that process, like it certainly did for me, then that would be amazing. And if people can identify with the themes of brotherhood and love and imagination and fierce strength in the face of adversity, then that would be cool, too.
Words: Helena Emmanuel (she/they)
This interview has been edited for conciseness and readibility.
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